Asshole Lovers: A Story and Question From A Former Student

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One of my favorite former students wrote me an extremely thoughtful email over t he weekend about the dangerous role that "asshole lovers" play in organizations, arguing that there are people who aren't assholes, but who set the stage for them to be hired, succeed, and be rewarded for it. It reminds me a little of the "toxic enablers" discussed in the late Peter Frost's lovely book Toxic Emotions at Work, but he is getting at something even more extreme and troubling in this story. Here is what her wrote, and like him, I am especially curious to hear your answers to his question:

I had a quick random thought that I wanted to share with
you: so the theory of "get rid of
assholes" in organizations makes sense for all of the reasons you have
studied. However, how did the assholes
get into the org in the first place? Is
there perhaps a second class of people, with unique properties, that are
"Asshole Lovers?" That is, are
there reasonably identifiable properties of a person such that they aren't an
asshole themselves, but everyone they hire, everyone they work for, everyone they
enter personal relationships with, are going to turn out to be assholes? In that sense, the Asshole Lover is just as
dangerous as the Asshole that follows behind them.

The motivation for my thought: I went to one of these Silicon Valley
networking meetings recently where they had a "career coach" come to
speak. This woman was unreal. The seminar was basically a 2 hour rant on
her opinions – no evidence sited by any of the guidance she proposed – in fact,
some of the coaching she providing about online job searching, I knew to be
factually false. Whenever a participant
questioned her guidance, she immediately said something to put the participant
down. Over time, nobody questioned her,
for fear of how she would respond.

Midway through the seminar, a woman shows up about an
hour late. When the coach welcomed her
into the room (in a snide condescending way), the woman apologizes profusely,
goes off on how she commuted all the way from Marin to come here and she
wouldn't miss it because she idolized the coach, read all of her books, saw all
her videos, and so on

Now if you're the incompetent asshole coach, what
incentive do you have to become better?
The Marin woman idolized the ground that the coach walked on. In fact, what little engagement and discussion
was happening in the class prior to the Marin woman entering just totally
unilaterally died afterwards. It was
demoralizing enough to have the asshole in the room; it was 10 times worse to
have someone in the room that idolized and promoted the asshole too.

But the Marin woman wasn't an asshole herself – she was
an asshole lover. She was the polar
opposite of an asshole – zero self-confidence, excessive obedience, etc.

Is it a false assumption to believe that no one likes
assholes? Does the "asshole
lover" actually create demand for assholes? Can assholes get ahead in the organization
without asshole lovers propping them up?

So my basic
question is: Can you really rid your
organization of assholes without also having to rid your organization of the
asshole lovers?

Comments

30 responses to “Asshole Lovers: A Story and Question From A Former Student”

February 17, 2009

pipebaum

No assholes, and no asshole lovers. Sounds like a lovely small company. (really small)

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February 17, 2009

pipebaum

No assholes, and no asshole lovers. Sounds like a lovely small company. (really small)

Reply
February 17, 2009

Kathy H

When I left a big company many years ago, I had an exit interview with the president of our division. I told him that I was leaving to get out from under the a-hole who was supervising me, and asked him why he let her stay on even though she was a jerk and had 50% turnover in her department every year. He said he knew she was a problem, but that she kept hiring good people to replace the ones who left, and they got the job done.
That’s when I knew for sure that I’d made the right decision. Sure enough, she stuck around for many more years after that, since no one else would hire her.

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February 17, 2009

Kathy H

When I left a big company many years ago, I had an exit interview with the president of our division. I told him that I was leaving to get out from under the a-hole who was supervising me, and asked him why he let her stay on even though she was a jerk and had 50% turnover in her department every year. He said he knew she was a problem, but that she kept hiring good people to replace the ones who left, and they got the job done.
That’s when I knew for sure that I’d made the right decision. Sure enough, she stuck around for many more years after that, since no one else would hire her.

Reply
February 17, 2009

Melanie

Bob, You’ve hit on a key point. In my organization, which under a previous leader was asshole infested, assholishness was glorified and rewarded. The more complaints levied against an asshole, the higher the raise he/she got. I noticed that many who were not full-fledged assholes themselves, would nonetheless take the easy route and say nice things about a raging, incompetent asshole out of what seemed to be fear of retaliation, as well as basic brown-nosing. When my company changed leadership and decided to can some of the most incompetent assholes, the leaders gave them “soft landings,” i.e. the higher up you were on the corporate ladder, the greater the chance that you would be sure to receive a glowing recommendation — even if you had been fired! This simply launches an incompetent into the workforce, and probably encourages them. And yes, I did witness some people who incredibly seemed to idolize an asshole. So assholes create fear-based distortions with regard to evaluations of their work by superiors, colleagues, and subordinates alike. That phenomenon perpetuates the asshole’s reign. In addition, there are those who sincerely idolize assholes and seek to emulate them!! My take on it is that assholes spend an inordinate amount of time seeking to persuade people how great/incredible/wonderful they are. It’s hard to overcome this since it involves many people spread throughout a network or organization. Many is the time I have heard someone say they “just love” so-and-so, who, from inside experience I know to be a major asshole. Sigh!

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February 17, 2009

Melanie

Bob, You’ve hit on a key point. In my organization, which under a previous leader was asshole infested, assholishness was glorified and rewarded. The more complaints levied against an asshole, the higher the raise he/she got. I noticed that many who were not full-fledged assholes themselves, would nonetheless take the easy route and say nice things about a raging, incompetent asshole out of what seemed to be fear of retaliation, as well as basic brown-nosing. When my company changed leadership and decided to can some of the most incompetent assholes, the leaders gave them “soft landings,” i.e. the higher up you were on the corporate ladder, the greater the chance that you would be sure to receive a glowing recommendation — even if you had been fired! This simply launches an incompetent into the workforce, and probably encourages them. And yes, I did witness some people who incredibly seemed to idolize an asshole. So assholes create fear-based distortions with regard to evaluations of their work by superiors, colleagues, and subordinates alike. That phenomenon perpetuates the asshole’s reign. In addition, there are those who sincerely idolize assholes and seek to emulate them!! My take on it is that assholes spend an inordinate amount of time seeking to persuade people how great/incredible/wonderful they are. It’s hard to overcome this since it involves many people spread throughout a network or organization. Many is the time I have heard someone say they “just love” so-and-so, who, from inside experience I know to be a major asshole. Sigh!

Reply
February 17, 2009

mj

Sounds like a classic case of “you spot it, you got it” in other words maybe your the asshole.

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February 17, 2009

mj

Sounds like a classic case of “you spot it, you got it” in other words maybe your the asshole.

Reply
February 17, 2009

JACH

I agree with your friend. I know a lot of people who think that a boss must have a “strong character” (which is an euphemism for “be an a-hole”). Not being able to enforce your way almost automatically disqualify you to a management position. They wouldn’t call themselves a-hole lovers, but they certainly deserve the title.
However, I have an observation: I think this a-hole love is a survival mechanism, like the Stockholm syndrome. You find your self trapped in a situation where you feel helpless, so either you go mad, or try to side with the “strongest”…

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February 17, 2009

JACH

I agree with your friend. I know a lot of people who think that a boss must have a “strong character” (which is an euphemism for “be an a-hole”). Not being able to enforce your way almost automatically disqualify you to a management position. They wouldn’t call themselves a-hole lovers, but they certainly deserve the title.
However, I have an observation: I think this a-hole love is a survival mechanism, like the Stockholm syndrome. You find your self trapped in a situation where you feel helpless, so either you go mad, or try to side with the “strongest”…

Reply
February 17, 2009

Ergoboy

Assholes and asshole lovers. Sounds like a bank I used to work for…
Unfortunately, kissing ass is an art form that some with no integrity use to get ahead. It takes a rare kind of person to not succumb to having their ass kissed, so I doubt you will ever get rid of the asshole lover. If the asshole were that self-aware to get rid of the asshole lover, they probably wouldn’t be an asshole themselves.

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February 17, 2009

Ergoboy

Assholes and asshole lovers. Sounds like a bank I used to work for…
Unfortunately, kissing ass is an art form that some with no integrity use to get ahead. It takes a rare kind of person to not succumb to having their ass kissed, so I doubt you will ever get rid of the asshole lover. If the asshole were that self-aware to get rid of the asshole lover, they probably wouldn’t be an asshole themselves.

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February 17, 2009

Rod Johnson

Okay, this is kind of a chicken and egg kind of question. Which one came first. The asshole came first and the followers came next. Or did the followers come first, and the asshole arrived. Mmmmm. Different company could achieve different results.
But I’m wondering if were missing the point. Oftentimes assholes turn out to be highly productive people. People that actually drive results. And people will tend to follow success, no matter how bad the tyranny. Just look at Hitler.

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February 17, 2009

Rod Johnson

Okay, this is kind of a chicken and egg kind of question. Which one came first. The asshole came first and the followers came next. Or did the followers come first, and the asshole arrived. Mmmmm. Different company could achieve different results.
But I’m wondering if were missing the point. Oftentimes assholes turn out to be highly productive people. People that actually drive results. And people will tend to follow success, no matter how bad the tyranny. Just look at Hitler.

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February 17, 2009

Chris Yeh

Asshole lovers are like any submissive partner in an abusive relationship–if they don’t get out, they end up enabling the abuser.
If you get abused, and you don’t either fight back and defeat your abuser, or pull the ripcord and escape, you will–by definition–become an enabler because you’ll have to give way simply to maintain the relationship.

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February 17, 2009

Chris Yeh

Asshole lovers are like any submissive partner in an abusive relationship–if they don’t get out, they end up enabling the abuser.
If you get abused, and you don’t either fight back and defeat your abuser, or pull the ripcord and escape, you will–by definition–become an enabler because you’ll have to give way simply to maintain the relationship.

Reply
February 18, 2009

Michael

Bob, I found this to be a very thoughtful post. Moving beyond personal faults alone (i.e., that person is an asshole), you have me thinking about the sometimes subtle ways bad behavior might be enabled. Perhaps an opportunity for all of us to help out our organization in some small way. Thank you for sharing this.

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February 18, 2009

Michael

Bob, I found this to be a very thoughtful post. Moving beyond personal faults alone (i.e., that person is an asshole), you have me thinking about the sometimes subtle ways bad behavior might be enabled. Perhaps an opportunity for all of us to help out our organization in some small way. Thank you for sharing this.

Reply
February 18, 2009

Jo

I agree with your former student. As a member of Al Anon (the 12 step group for families/friends of alcoholics) I can tell you unequivocally that there is a DANCE between the person with the problem (asshole, alcoholic, what-have-you) and the asshole-lovers/codependents in their life. The actor is merely ranting on a stage if there is no audience. In order for an asshole to function as an asshole, there has to be that ‘audience’. In my workplace (an asshole stew) I’ve noticed that when I apply Al Anon principles, (ie, I don’t engage, I don’t behave passive aggressively) the asshole is left with little to do other than walk away with his tail between his legs because he didn’t get a rise out of me. Getting a rise is what these people want and need. If you don’t participate in the dance, THERE IS NO DANCE.
Excellent ideas. Thanks for sharing it.

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February 18, 2009

Jo

I agree with your former student. As a member of Al Anon (the 12 step group for families/friends of alcoholics) I can tell you unequivocally that there is a DANCE between the person with the problem (asshole, alcoholic, what-have-you) and the asshole-lovers/codependents in their life. The actor is merely ranting on a stage if there is no audience. In order for an asshole to function as an asshole, there has to be that ‘audience’. In my workplace (an asshole stew) I’ve noticed that when I apply Al Anon principles, (ie, I don’t engage, I don’t behave passive aggressively) the asshole is left with little to do other than walk away with his tail between his legs because he didn’t get a rise out of me. Getting a rise is what these people want and need. If you don’t participate in the dance, THERE IS NO DANCE.
Excellent ideas. Thanks for sharing it.

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February 18, 2009

Mike

As a person who works on legislation in New York State to address workplace bullying, I have had an interest and spend a lot of time researching narcissistic behavior. It sounds like this “job coach” through her actions exhibited a form of naricisstic behavior that bullies others in behaving a certain way so she could control the outcome of the presentation. Research on narcissism has found that people who are in leadership positions that have this attribute do contribute to a continued pattern of poor leadership and hire people just as incompetent as they are. Why would a narcissitic bully hire someone who is smarter, more intelligent and popular than they are? These are the people bullies strive to eliminate in the organization as they take away the attention and “narcissistic supply” these types of “leaders” need to feel good about themselves. The “asshole lover” in this case may value the job coaches information and in narcissistic terms is dependent on the information she presents, but one would have to wonder what, if anything, she has done with the information. In the world of narcissism, this person would be called a “co-dependent” who gets something out of the relationship but is not likely aware that this is a one way relationship. She buys the coaches books and gets to dream about her dream job or dream life. In turn this coach produces more of her rants as people buy it and she gets to feel good about herself for as long as this pattern continues. There is no doubt in my mind that assholes breed other assholes. At some point, the bullied employee will give up and just forget about trying to do something about an organization that allows this behavior to continue, thereby allowing the pattern to continue. It is a shame creating a list of the “Worst Places to Work” would be so subjective. It would really help healthy employees find organizations that adhere to the repeated pattern of hiring assholes to find a healthier places to work for.

Reply
February 18, 2009

Mike

As a person who works on legislation in New York State to address workplace bullying, I have had an interest and spend a lot of time researching narcissistic behavior. It sounds like this “job coach” through her actions exhibited a form of naricisstic behavior that bullies others in behaving a certain way so she could control the outcome of the presentation. Research on narcissism has found that people who are in leadership positions that have this attribute do contribute to a continued pattern of poor leadership and hire people just as incompetent as they are. Why would a narcissitic bully hire someone who is smarter, more intelligent and popular than they are? These are the people bullies strive to eliminate in the organization as they take away the attention and “narcissistic supply” these types of “leaders” need to feel good about themselves. The “asshole lover” in this case may value the job coaches information and in narcissistic terms is dependent on the information she presents, but one would have to wonder what, if anything, she has done with the information. In the world of narcissism, this person would be called a “co-dependent” who gets something out of the relationship but is not likely aware that this is a one way relationship. She buys the coaches books and gets to dream about her dream job or dream life. In turn this coach produces more of her rants as people buy it and she gets to feel good about herself for as long as this pattern continues. There is no doubt in my mind that assholes breed other assholes. At some point, the bullied employee will give up and just forget about trying to do something about an organization that allows this behavior to continue, thereby allowing the pattern to continue. It is a shame creating a list of the “Worst Places to Work” would be so subjective. It would really help healthy employees find organizations that adhere to the repeated pattern of hiring assholes to find a healthier places to work for.

Reply
February 19, 2009

Hayli @ RiseSmart

This is great insight! I wish this were only a problem in offices. Unfortunately, it crops up in schools, families, and even ::gasp:: churches. They’re everywhere! Unfortunately, the workplace is one of the hardest environments to extricate yourself from this unhealthy dynamic.

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February 19, 2009

Hayli @ RiseSmart

This is great insight! I wish this were only a problem in offices. Unfortunately, it crops up in schools, families, and even ::gasp:: churches. They’re everywhere! Unfortunately, the workplace is one of the hardest environments to extricate yourself from this unhealthy dynamic.

Reply
February 19, 2009

Jeev

I think America loves assholes. Case in point, Simon Cowell on American Idol. I don’t know if it is the fear of ridicule or the admiration of independent thought and attitude. Either way, it is perpetuating such “assholish” behaviors.

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February 19, 2009

Jeev

I think America loves assholes. Case in point, Simon Cowell on American Idol. I don’t know if it is the fear of ridicule or the admiration of independent thought and attitude. Either way, it is perpetuating such “assholish” behaviors.

Reply
February 20, 2009

Stormchild

Thank you for this. I work in an industry in which assholes abound, and yes, there are definitely asshole lovers – collectors – rewarders out there.
My experience though is that most asshole lovers are assholes themselves. The difference is that they’re passive, enabling type assholes, as opposed to active, hostile type assholes. As such, it takes a while to realize that they are, indeed, an asshole subspecies.
Take for instance the Division President asshole enabler that melanie describes above. As long as his star asshole hires good people and gets work out of them while burning them out, he doesn’t care how much damage she does. Secondary asshole? Definitely. Or what Dave Barry would call a “Small Auxiliary Backup Asshole”.
I think a similar specimen ran a department where I used to work. The nastier a person was, the faster they were promoted. Competent, decent ones rewarded? Never. Yet the department head wasn’t overtly nasty in any way.
However, he was very uncomfortable with emotions, and he really hated to be bothered by the necessary details that are fundamental to actually getting the job done. And he seemed totally unable to grasp the inevitable consequences of hiring, promoting, and favoring assholes.
I think this is all part of the same thing. Avoid dealing with the emotional climate, shun detail necessary to understanding the work, and voila! You too can collect assholes like flypaper.

Reply
February 20, 2009

Stormchild

Thank you for this. I work in an industry in which assholes abound, and yes, there are definitely asshole lovers – collectors – rewarders out there.
My experience though is that most asshole lovers are assholes themselves. The difference is that they’re passive, enabling type assholes, as opposed to active, hostile type assholes. As such, it takes a while to realize that they are, indeed, an asshole subspecies.
Take for instance the Division President asshole enabler that melanie describes above. As long as his star asshole hires good people and gets work out of them while burning them out, he doesn’t care how much damage she does. Secondary asshole? Definitely. Or what Dave Barry would call a “Small Auxiliary Backup Asshole”.
I think a similar specimen ran a department where I used to work. The nastier a person was, the faster they were promoted. Competent, decent ones rewarded? Never. Yet the department head wasn’t overtly nasty in any way.
However, he was very uncomfortable with emotions, and he really hated to be bothered by the necessary details that are fundamental to actually getting the job done. And he seemed totally unable to grasp the inevitable consequences of hiring, promoting, and favoring assholes.
I think this is all part of the same thing. Avoid dealing with the emotional climate, shun detail necessary to understanding the work, and voila! You too can collect assholes like flypaper.

Reply
March 2, 2009

Ann

Though not all asshole are pompous or arrogant, many are. And in a situation such as an interview, it can come across as self-confidence. If you are an asshole, you tend towards people like yourself; if you aren’t, you too tend to look for candidates who are self-confident anyway. Either way, assholes get hired.

Reply
March 2, 2009

Ann

Though not all asshole are pompous or arrogant, many are. And in a situation such as an interview, it can come across as self-confidence. If you are an asshole, you tend towards people like yourself; if you aren’t, you too tend to look for candidates who are self-confident anyway. Either way, assholes get hired.

Reply